Possible new course at Perry Lake

[Schoen-hopper]

Good points. With course design, there usually always a deeper realm of possibilities not yet considered. That's why getting plenty of quality feedback can make all the difference in a good design.

That is a top question to ask in designing: what skill level are you designing for? If you want to host tournaments, at least one level (tees) for the course should be blue/advanced.

Another thing not often realized. A Par 60 course for intermediate (900 rated) can be better not only for the intermediate players (more length & shot variety), but it would also serve as a par 54 course for advanced (950 rated). So I would encourage whatever division this is designed for to include par 4 holes and par 3.5 holes. Much more interesting. And sure, a good par 2.5 ace run hole or so is not a bad thing. Adds to the variety as well.

[Nivek9]

I suspect the target audience for this course initially will be recreational players. Therefore the initial design should be done with that in mind. But a good design should definitely include advanced teeing and pin locations so the course can be adjusted to the audience. Leave it easy most of the time for vacationers and have the ability to stretch it out for the occasional serious golf event. I think two tees per hole is obviously something that should be considered. Not enough of our area courses have that option. It's much more common in courses I've played in the east, Virginia and Florida for example.

[carlbren21]

We marked out two tee locations on every hole, one for beginner, one for advanced. They were looking into two tees, but not sure what they decided. The park right now doesn't get a hole lot of use, and the use it does get, is an older crowd. So, I assume that the main traffic will be experienced players at least to start. I can say from what we walked out on the front nine, it probably played about a par 30-32. There are some really cool elevation shots, wood shots, tunnel shots that go out into open areas, side hill, dog leg, etc... The back has a pond that will come into play. Should be a great course to spend a weekend at!

[mrsenortyler]

Can't wait to see this one! Sounds like you guys have your stuff together!

[Ranger KB]

I can tell everyone that there are several reasons we are looking at singe tee pads per hole to start out with.
1. We want to install larger teepads, and concrete work is expensive.
2. The topography limits multiple tee placements on many of the holes
3. Access to many of the holes is remote to say the least, and the contractor may have a difficult time getting the concrete on site. (using a bucket on the skidsteer to transport from the nearest road access for trucks)
4. We would also like to limit the amount of large trees removed on the course, and some of the holes do not offer a better tee placement for easier pads.

That being said, I think that people will travel to the park to play the course as much as they will to camp. At least until the course is more well-known. the park doesn't get much activity aside from holiday weekends. I would say that the area will draw in more people who are regular disc golfers that also want to camp rather than vice versa.

As far as water hazards, ther are 3 holes that are near a pond, with two having the option of throwing over the water or taking a safe route around. There are also numerous drainages and a creek that get crossed. Hopefully I can get those pictures posted ASAP so everyone will see what I mean. Thanks again for the comments.

[Schoen-hopper]

Don't take my comments too critically. I just like to throw stuff out there. Sounds like you guys are doing a fantastic job. Big concrete tee pads will be nice! Love hearing about some elevation to work with also.

So, since more discers happen to enjoy camping than campers enjoy discing, the advanced skill level sounds like it would indeed be the level to design for. How far is the location from I-70? If it more than 30-45 minutes, the main players it will attract are those that are seriously into the game. So an upper level, challenging experience is what will get people to come and come back.

Back to design, it sounds like some good ideas are being shared. Hole where throwing over water is optional is a good risk/reward situation. Sometimes water can make a good par 4 without requiring an extremely long hole. The drive can be a lay-up to an optimal location or a riskier shot to reduce the distance. All depends on what you have to work with, but there are a lot of different hole styles that aren't always immediately apparent.

One of the top things that make a hole both good & fun is scoring spread. A hole that doesn't sort players by skill demonstrated is like a hole that wasn't played. Trees & OB tend to help this quite a bit. It is possible for holes to be so tough that they become "lucky", but there are so many more holes that really don't encourage safe play by not having the threat for high scores. So having plenty of trees to work with sounds like a very good thing. Holes with tightly forested fairways can make for great par 4's without needing to be all that long. Dog legs are great in the woods. To make the hole a higher par, try moving the basket farther from the dog leg.

One thing that makes score spread in disc golf sometimes inferior to our golf counterpart is the ease of putting. Not only can we sink 25' putts as easily as a 5' golf putt, but most putts are similarly wide open & flat, so not much variety of putting skill is needed. One thing that makes disc holes great is having trees in front of the green to negotiate. Even some on the green close to the basket can be good as long as they aren't a target people can use to make the hole easier. Like the apron and traps in ball golf, trees in front of the green put an emphasis on the approach game. Holes where trees narrow the fairway closer to the green are rarely anything but great holes. Another idea that makes putting tough (and more interesting) is elevated baskets. Combine elevation & trees, and you have a really dynamic green!

[Leo D.]

First off, i want to say a big "thanks" to Kyle. His committment to this project is easily seen. Kyle, Bren, Zilla and myself set up the front 9 design a week ago, and today Kyle, Heddy and myself finished up the back 9 design. This thing is coming together fast!

Quick overview of the layout, distances roughly estimated:
1. 340 ft. Straight alley shot, tricky green
2. 415 ft. Alley shot, dog leg left
3. 630 ft. Wooded, uphill, dogleg left, boulder green
4. 360 ft. Straight wooded, with major drop off along the right side of the fairway
5. 800 ft. Picture perfect, alley shot to a first tier, then drop to the flat lands, (elevation is about triple of WW hole #1)
6. 310 ft. Straight shot uphill with a wooded green
7. 380 ft. From one mountain to the other shot, HUGE wooded valley with a boulder green
8. 325 ft. Heavily wooded dog leg right hole.
9. 460 ft. Big elevation shot straight down hill with woods first 3/4 of the fairway
10. 300 ft. Tee pad gap shot
11. 375 ft. Straight uphill, with a heavily lined wooded fairway
12. 515 ft. Slow gradual downhill, heavily wooded, guarded green
13. 260 ft. Straight alley shot, shooting back to the pond, beautifull green
14. 350 ft. Straight downhill over the corner of the right side of the pond.
15. 375 ft. Straight downhill over the middle of the pond, (probally the signature hole.)
16. 420 ft. Major downhill gap shot to a guarded green.
17. 350 ft. Slow anhyzer alley shot with cool green.
18. 400 ft. Slim hyzer alley shot, with very tricky green.

I can't stress enough the elevation this course has. Definitely more than water works or cliff drive. Great water shots, tricky boulder greens, and heavily wooded. This thing is gonna be a monster!

[smitty]

You should put a basket on the top of a boulder.


They did this on a couple of holes on the Renny course in N. Carolina. They are two of the coolest holes on one of the coolest courses that I have ever played.

[Leo D.]

Funny you mention that smitty. The first time i seen the first set of boulders, all i could think about was hole #8 at Rosedale, or the hole at Herington. How would you go about puting in the pin? Drill out the rock and fill with concrete?

[smitty]

They used some kind of a drill in Carolina. Stan McDaniel would be the man to talk to about it.

[Ranger KB]

Hey guys, the park itself is about 20-25 minutes north of I-70, but about 10-15 minutes north of 24 hwy. Sorry if my earlier post sounded critical on some of the comments, that was not my intention. Holes 5 and I think 15 are two really neat shots. Hopefully I can get some photos posted. Keep the comments coming guys, we appreciate it.

[Schoen-hopper]

Course sounds wicked (good). This sounds like just the sort of course that would provide the challenge most of us are looking for.

Get advanced playters to play the course a few times. Even to flags for pin locations will give you an idea. Call a putt good if its inside 25'. Take down some scores and see what kind of numbers you are getting.

Once you have what everyone believes to be the best layout, you can make it even better by making slight adjustments to the distances. If a hole gets half 3's and half 4's, that's actually not a bad hole. Tweener hole or par 3.5. But if a hole gets all pars and only a bogey occassionally, and no birdies, that's not a good hole. Move the tee or the pin a little shorter. If you have trees in play, that should be great for scoring spread, but if you have 380' tunnel shots, 2's would be so rare that the hole would probably play like par 3.5 rather than par 3.

Pictures would be awesome.

[ronconversjr]

I would like to suggest reinforcing the t-pads and attaching rings to the sides so that the pads could be moved with a chain and backhoe. This is a little more expensive initially, but allows a lot more flexibility down the road. Using rings welded to the re-bar reinforcement, the rings can be positioned below grade when installed.

[Ranger KB]

I tried to post some pics of the course area, but it won't let me. How do I go about posting pics? I PM'd the administrator, but I wasn't sure if I just wasn't doing something right?

[smitty]

You will have to host the pictures on a different site, then link them to this one.