1.7?

[ronconversjr]

O.K. first off ,a faster disc (ballistically) does mean that to get peak performance you need to throw it at the speed it is designed for.A good example is the surge.When a longer armed player throws it it straightens out ,or flips.For somone with less armspeed the Surge is overstable.The stability differs with each individuals throw.The amount of glide built into a mold(lift-like a wing)stays the same.Some discs get distance by going fast but fall most of the way( ex.Flick) other discs get distance by floating along (ex.XL).The Flick has very little lift when compared to the XL but it is Much Faster.The XL will probably go a lot further for a 300 ft thrower than the flick and not just because of the stability.Put any higher speed Disc in a Power requirement bracket.You got to have x amount of power to push it.The faster it is ,the more stable it becomes at slow speeds COMPARED TO IT`S DESIGNED FLIGHT!Thus the popularity of fast discs that Smitty ,E-mac, or I would consider unstable.
On a side note the ESP Tracker -is-more stable than a ESP Surge.The way that Discraft has been rating it`s discs depends on feedback from it`s Pro test pool.A survey usually accompanies tester discs and we rate them.Blame any bad ratings on Smitty Actually Discraft reviews the results and if it`s to far from what they want ,it`s back to the drawing board(ex. Torque)If the results look right ,they use comparative stability(it is more stable than a Surge!)along with an avg. of all our ratings ,to come up with a rating for each disc.
Rating systems differ between Mfg`s and I think that long distance and faster speed are often used interchangeably even though they mean different things.A baseball flies faster,but takes a lot more power to travel the same distance as a disc.

[Schoen-hopper]

[quote="ronconversjr"]The faster it is ,the more stable it becomes at slow speeds COMPARED TO IT`S DESIGNED FLIGHT!Thus the popularity of fast discs that Smitty ,E-mac, or I would consider unstable.
quote]

Can you explain these two statements? A Champion Whippet is one of the most overstable discs, but it is stable for the designed flight and gets more stable. This is not a "fast" disc, right? Your saying the reason it's not fast is that the stablility comparison between high speed and low speed isn't different enough?

I had originally thought it was the most overstable discs that were the fastest. If a disc slinger was designed for max distance, I would assume that something like a STAR Max would get the most distance. When I throw for max distance, however, it is the flippiest drivers in the bag that go the farthest. Even looking at the history of distance records, it has always been understable drivers that go the furthest. Is this because humans cannot get enough speed on the disc or because understable discs can be almost as fast as more overstable discs? (Or other)

[Bangrrr]

That has got to be the best explanation I've heard on the subject Ron. I really like the Flight Chart on www.gottagogottathrow.com It gives the flight when thrown with a certain amount of power...

[Anakha]

The XL will probably go a lot further for a 300ft thrower than the Flick, and not just because of the stability. Put any higher speed disc in a power requirement bracket. You got to have x amount of power to push it.The faster it is ,the more stable it becomes at slow speeds COMPARED TO IT`S DESIGNED FLIGHT! Thus the popularity of fast discs that Smitty,E-mac, or I would consider unstable.

Can you explain these two statements? A Champion Whippet is one of the most overstable discs, but it is stable for the designed flight and gets more stable. This is not a "fast" disc, right? Your saying the reason it's not fast is that the stablility comparison between high speed and low speed isn't different enough?

I re-quoted for you to better explain and because the bold is part of the explanation.

What Ron means is, a certain disc has a "cruise speed" which needs to be obtained to get it's intended flight pattern. For instance, an XL has a lower cruise speed compared to a Surge, so for someone that has only 300' of capable power, the Surge will fly much more overstable for them, compared to somebody with 400'+ power. And the XL, having a lower cruise speed, will fly much straighter, and because of the glide and difference in stability, lower speed, it will go further than the Surge for them.

As for the Whippet, while it isn't as fast, it is very overstable. So again, with somebody with less arm speed/power, it will be even more overstable for them than somebody with more power.

You can somewhat compare it to throwing into a headwind. While there are other forces at work that change the flight, basically, the disc is acting as it would be moving much faster, because of the resistance and the force of the air coming at you.

I had originally thought it was the most overstable discs that were the fastest. If a disc slinger was designed for max distance, I would assume that something like a STAR Max would get the most distance. When I throw for max distance, however, it is the flippiest drivers in the bag that go the farthest. Even looking at the history of distance records, it has always been understable drivers that go the furthest. Is this because humans cannot get enough speed on the disc or because understable discs can be almost as fast as more overstable discs? (Or other)

In the disc slinger theory, you would be right, more overstable would go farther compared to a understable disc, if it had enough speed, and were on a lower, flat trajectory. Because of the overstabilty, the disc would be fighting the turnover, thus staying in the air longer, where the flippy disc would turn over and roll. But, if you changed the angle of release on the understable disc,(hyzer) it would be fighting, the opposite of the overstable disc, to flip, so it would stay in the air longer. (Hyzerflip!) But you could also do this with the overstable disc and put it anhyzer and get the same results, resistance to falling(Flex shot!)

Both of those methods are used for big distance, while the hyzerflip is more unpredictable, it also allows for more possible air time because of wind, air thickness, etc, to increase the D, which is why the biggest records are with flippy discs.

[ronconversjr]

The faster it is ,the more stable it becomes at slow speeds COMPARED TO IT`S DESIGNED FLIGHT!Thus the popularity of fast discs that Smitty ,E-mac, or I would consider unstable.
quote]

Can you explain these two statements? A Champion Whippet is one of the most overstable discs, but it is stable for the designed flight and gets more stable. This is not a "fast" disc, right? Your saying the reason it's not fast is that the stablility comparison between high speed and low speed isn't different enough?




I had originally thought it was the most overstable discs that were the fastest. If a disc slinger was designed for max distance, I would assume that something like a STAR Max would get the most distance. When I throw for max distance, however, it is the flippiest drivers in the bag that go the farthest. Even looking at the history of distance records, it has always been understable drivers that go the furthest. Is this because humans cannot get enough speed on the disc or because understable discs can be almost as fast as more overstable discs? (Or other)

part 1)
No Mike,what I said was that as discs slow down they act more stable.Speed ,stability and carry(lift) are three completely different characteristics.The reason that a Whippet is slower is because of it`s profile.
Part 2)
"Even looking at the history of distance records"?Look again The Viper was THE overstable disc of choice ,and a record holder.Also overstable the X-clone held the record for a while.The reason for this is that there are 2 basic flights to achieve distance.Both stretch the "s" shape .The first is taking an Overstable and throwing a anhyzer and letting it flex back the second is to throw a "flippy "with hyzer and letting it flip plane and then hyzer out.Both flights are good to know ,but the second way is easier and has the benefit of an extra stretch in the "s".In other words it will stay in the air and hold a straighter line forward than an overstable disc.
I personally prefer the more stable flight for control but max flight for me is a surge with hyzer.Remember this is also in theoretical conditions ,downwind or still.As a funny, in a hard tailwind I out drove my Surges with a Comet!Your theoretical disc slinger would need to release different discs at different angles to achieve the best flight for each.As the speed of release increased the hyzer pitch would need to increase or you would have to step up in stability(unless you wanted to see a long roller)This stability increase would cause the disc to hyzer on the end of it`s flight negating some of the distance gain.

[Anakha]

I really like the Flight Chart on www.gottagogottathrow.com It gives the flight when thrown with a certain amount of power...

While IMO, that one is flawed also,(some disc ratings) it does explain better than any I've seen.

But, it doesn't show you the flight at a certain amount of power, it tells(guidelines, not exact) what amount of power you would need to get that flight rating.

[ronconversjr]

The cool thing about charts is that they show discs speeds relative to EACH OTHER!
Hey Anahka wanna race!

[Schoen-hopper]

That's probably the best chart I've seen. But it still has some problems. A Wildcat flies nothing like a Rouge. But then again, what type of plastic were they throwing? An X Wildcat might be a different story.

Why would a consistent way of testing be great for players? You wouldn't have to buy so many discs!

Say I like Surges. Should I get an X, Z, ESP, FLX or what? Gotta try them all. Should I get a first run or second or later? Gotta try them. Yellow or Red or Blue or Green or Black or Orange. Gotta try them. Are the red ones really more stable or did I just get a good run? Better buy a couple more. It just keeps going and going and this is just one disc!

If you had something to test the discs, you could give the data for everything out there. I can see how disc manufacturers would not want something like this. If it was a good enough design to be affordable, maybe something like this could be sold for anyone to use for themselves.

[Anakha]

Hey Anahka wanna race!

Lmao I was just thinking the same thing. We're posting answers at the same time, but at least it's good to see we're on the same page.

Echo...echo...echo...echo

[Anakha]

But it still has some problems. A Wildcat flies nothing like a Rouge. But then again, what type of plastic were they throwing? An X Wildcat might be a different story.

That's one of the problems with that chart, and the disc slinger.

While they both have similar characteristics, the Rogue is faster, and has less LSS, mainly because of the rim shape. But, again, the speed makes it appear like the LSS is comparable. BTW, the Flash is the most comparable imo, to a Wildcat. But then again...speed.

Things like this is what I'm talking about with the idea of the disc slinger. More speed, spin, rim configurations, height, angle, etc, etc, is the problem.

Too many variables.

Echo.

[Schoen-hopper]

You guys made like 6 posts while I was writing my last one.

Let me catch up...

[ronconversjr]

Actually I suggested to Discraft that they test the contraction differential of each kind of pigment .My dad is an organic chemist.He suggested a series of SIMPLE tests to determine how color (pigment) effects flight characteristics.By knowing and publishing the results a person could pick the Surge that they wanted.You would know which color was more stable or less stable.I thought it was a good idea, but I don`t think it`s going to happen any time soon The most important thing is to know YOUR disc .Getting an extra few feet is a lot less important than placing an accurate shot.It sounds like you are on the eternal quest for the "perfect "disc Instead buy three matched discs at a time this way if you like them you`ve got backup Well!It works for me!!

[ronconversjr]

Mike, I type with one finger.And I`ve been running errands between posts...

[Anakha]

You would know which color was more stable or less stable.I thought it was a good idea, but I don`t think it`s going to happen any time soon The most important thing is to know YOUR disc .Getting an extra few feet is a lot less important than placing an accurate shot.It sounds like you are on the eternal quest for the "perfect "disc Instead buy three matched discs at a time this way if you like them you`ve got backup Well!It works for me!!

Exactly. I've gotten to the point where I can tell by just looking at a disc to tell if it's going to be a "money" disc. And then I stock up if I can. Like the pearled, flat Z Buzzzes. I know they are going to feel and fly like every other flat pearled Buzzz I have. I pick them up at every chance. I'm still waiting to come across comparable ESP's though, I can't seem to come across any low shoulder, flat ESP Buzzzes. I've seen them, but not any anybody will give up, or for purchase.

This is also the reason I started this thread. I wanted to see if the 1.7's were all the same run.

I'm picky sometimes.

[smitty]

I think that many people make the entire disc selection thing far to hard. Keep it simple.

For me:
Surge if I am trying to throw 450 or farther.
Pred anytime I can reach the hole.
XL if I have to finish right, and I cannot 2 finger the shot. Which isn't very often.
Buzzz on as many shots as I can.

I don't know what the stabilities are or should be. I just pick a disc that I like, color, grip, what ever and throw it.

All I here is Destroyer this, Destroyer that ,it is so fast, blah blah blah. Of all the people who throw the disc maybe 15-20% should be throwing it.