But some folks just can't stomach "par 2" on a tees sign.
Some holes will invariably come out as "par 2" as long as the WCP or SSA is less than 54, which most courses are.
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PAR
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Schoen-hopper
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Posting hole pars for the division designed the course was designed for is probably the best way to go. This will encourage future course design to not include 200' wide open holes if designed for blue or gold players.
While I say "for the division designed the course was designed for", I don't necessarily mean recreational, which most would classify as a skill level below that of even red (825-875 rated players).
It would be great for references sake, to include an "absolute hole difficulty" number for each hole that would give the true indication of the holes difficulty. 1000 rated scratch scoring average of the hole in tenths. Example.... (2.3). It wouldn't have to take up but a very small part of the tee sign.
While I say "for the division designed the course was designed for", I don't necessarily mean recreational, which most would classify as a skill level below that of even red (825-875 rated players).
It would be great for references sake, to include an "absolute hole difficulty" number for each hole that would give the true indication of the holes difficulty. 1000 rated scratch scoring average of the hole in tenths. Example.... (2.3). It wouldn't have to take up but a very small part of the tee sign.
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Schoen-hopper
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It's gonna take a lot to get courses to conform to the PDGA's skill level colors, let alone a new par system. The par 2 issue would certainly be a problem if we were trying to evaluate our SSA 50-54 courses as blue or gold courses, but I think were basically looking toward the future with the newer courses conforming to design requirements.
Sorry, but "expert" players don't have 1 error shots. Ask any pro, if you miss the deuce on any hole under 300' you lost a stroke to the rest of the field.Anakha wrote:I don't see par 2's happening, unless you have like a 60ft hole. With par, there is always 1 error shot(usually the 2nd putt) And who wants to call an ace just a birdie? I could be wrong, but IMO it's not gonna happen.
I agree, but "par" should(and will, IMO)always allow that one error. If pro's always make those perfect scores, you wouldn't have much of a game.Anita wrote:
Sorry, but "expert" players don't have 1 error shots. Ask any pro, if you miss the deuce on any hole under 300' you lost a stroke to the rest of the field.
I'm sure when and if it happens, you can come back, quote me, and put Haha, I told ya so, but par 2 is not gonna happen(damn I hope there isn't one already out there) But I think "optimum" and "par" is getting confusing. I'll just say shoot your best, and leave it at that.Anita wrote:By doing that, you end up padding "par".
Then it won't REALLY mean what an expert will shoot and it will end up being "rec. par" by default.
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Schoen-hopper
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There is a lot of things that can make a short hole tougher.
If it is a 200 foot wide open hole, though, and you expect pro's to play it in a tournament (you are evaluating the par for gold players), you can expect that the hole will average around 2.2 throws. That is par 2.
In other words, you gotta make some pro tees or change the hole design if you don't like making it par 2 (which I don't).
If it is a 200 foot wide open hole, though, and you expect pro's to play it in a tournament (you are evaluating the par for gold players), you can expect that the hole will average around 2.2 throws. That is par 2.
In other words, you gotta make some pro tees or change the hole design if you don't like making it par 2 (which I don't).
Isn't my "just put the rec. par on the signs" sounding better all the time?
I would say that there are "par 2" holes out there all over the place. I can name you about 8 of them on the original Roper setup.
There are too many conflicting measurment schemes right now.
Go ahead and make them all 3s there Q!
I would say that there are "par 2" holes out there all over the place. I can name you about 8 of them on the original Roper setup.
There are too many conflicting measurment schemes right now.
Go ahead and make them all 3s there Q!
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Schoen-hopper
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Again, what is rec par? That's much more evasive than an absolute hole par. What's wrong with giving people the truth? If the hole averages 2.3 for 1000 rated players, that's it. Making it par 4, 5, 6, or 7 won't change it.
If the course is a red course, the average for that skill level would be (1000-850=150..... 150=50x3..... 3 x .27 = approx 0.8...... 0.8+2.3 =3.1) 3.1 or PAR 3. Mark the pad red and list the par as 3 in a red number.
The real value of a hole isn't determined by the par. It is determined by 2 main things. Is there a good (large) scoring spread? and.... Is the hole fair? Holes with elevation, trees, OB, tight greens, etc all increase scoring spread for a hole. If the fairway is full of 100's of 2 foot gaps and it's up to luck to determine the score, then you have good scoring variety, but an unfair hole.
The reason par 2 holes are bad is because their are only 2 possible scores and only 1 likely score. Poor scoring spread.
Now, if you wanted a good par 2, shorten it up and make it treacherous. Put a basket up on a rock about 80' from the tee. And some wind and some OB and now you have chances at 1, 2, 3, and maybe even 4.
Good holes are about the design, not the par. Scoring averages and scoring spreads are just design tools.
If the course is a red course, the average for that skill level would be (1000-850=150..... 150=50x3..... 3 x .27 = approx 0.8...... 0.8+2.3 =3.1) 3.1 or PAR 3. Mark the pad red and list the par as 3 in a red number.
The real value of a hole isn't determined by the par. It is determined by 2 main things. Is there a good (large) scoring spread? and.... Is the hole fair? Holes with elevation, trees, OB, tight greens, etc all increase scoring spread for a hole. If the fairway is full of 100's of 2 foot gaps and it's up to luck to determine the score, then you have good scoring variety, but an unfair hole.
The reason par 2 holes are bad is because their are only 2 possible scores and only 1 likely score. Poor scoring spread.
Now, if you wanted a good par 2, shorten it up and make it treacherous. Put a basket up on a rock about 80' from the tee. And some wind and some OB and now you have chances at 1, 2, 3, and maybe even 4.
Good holes are about the design, not the par. Scoring averages and scoring spreads are just design tools.
The Wikipedia definition of par for standard golf:
A hole is classified by its par. Par is the maximum number of strokes that a skilled golfer should require to complete the hole. A skilled golfer expects to reach the green in two strokes under par (in regulation) and then use two putts to get the ball into the hole. For example, a skilled golfer expects to reach the green on a par four hole in two strokes, one from the tee (her "drive"), another to the green (her "approach"), and then roll the ball into the hole with two putts. Traditionally, a golf hole is either a par three, four, or five.
The par of a hole is primarily, but not exclusively, determined by the distance from tee to green. A typical length for a par three hole is anywhere between 91 to 224 m (100 to 250 yds.), for a par four, between 225 to 434 m (251 to 475 yds.). Par five holes are typically at least 435 m (476 yds.), but can be as long 548 m (600 yds.). Many 18-hole courses have approximately four par-three, ten par-four, and four par-five holes. The total par of an 18-hole course is usually around 72. In many countries, courses are classified by a course rating in addition to the course's par. This rating describes the difficulty of a course and may be used to calculate a golfer's playing handicap for that individual course (see golf handicap).
As this states, a standard golf hole is par 3, 4 or 5. It is expected to have a drive and two putt opportunities. I personally have never seen a standard golf hole at under par 3, so why should disc golf be any different? Now obviously distances might need to be augmented in comparison to real golf, as few people will be able to drive for a 550 ft green... I would suggest that all holes under 500 ft be par 3, all holes over it be par 4. If you have a hole that is 1000 ft (i dont think there are any in Kansas) then those can be par 5.
People know the difference between a 2 under on Jones west and a 2 under on Jones east in Emporia, so I don't see what the big deal is if most holes under 500 are par three? Its obvious when one plays that one course is more difficult than the other.
Of course, I tend to prefer Q's comment.... just make it easy on yourself and play everything par 3.
A hole is classified by its par. Par is the maximum number of strokes that a skilled golfer should require to complete the hole. A skilled golfer expects to reach the green in two strokes under par (in regulation) and then use two putts to get the ball into the hole. For example, a skilled golfer expects to reach the green on a par four hole in two strokes, one from the tee (her "drive"), another to the green (her "approach"), and then roll the ball into the hole with two putts. Traditionally, a golf hole is either a par three, four, or five.
The par of a hole is primarily, but not exclusively, determined by the distance from tee to green. A typical length for a par three hole is anywhere between 91 to 224 m (100 to 250 yds.), for a par four, between 225 to 434 m (251 to 475 yds.). Par five holes are typically at least 435 m (476 yds.), but can be as long 548 m (600 yds.). Many 18-hole courses have approximately four par-three, ten par-four, and four par-five holes. The total par of an 18-hole course is usually around 72. In many countries, courses are classified by a course rating in addition to the course's par. This rating describes the difficulty of a course and may be used to calculate a golfer's playing handicap for that individual course (see golf handicap).
As this states, a standard golf hole is par 3, 4 or 5. It is expected to have a drive and two putt opportunities. I personally have never seen a standard golf hole at under par 3, so why should disc golf be any different? Now obviously distances might need to be augmented in comparison to real golf, as few people will be able to drive for a 550 ft green... I would suggest that all holes under 500 ft be par 3, all holes over it be par 4. If you have a hole that is 1000 ft (i dont think there are any in Kansas) then those can be par 5.
People know the difference between a 2 under on Jones west and a 2 under on Jones east in Emporia, so I don't see what the big deal is if most holes under 500 are par three? Its obvious when one plays that one course is more difficult than the other.
Of course, I tend to prefer Q's comment.... just make it easy on yourself and play everything par 3.
I predict.... thread echoes. 
Last edited by Anakha on Tue Apr 25, 2006 11:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.